Andrew (00:01.88)
Today I'm sitting down with a mixer who's cleared over 500 songs in a single year, worked with Ice Nine Kills, Machine Head, Bless the Fall, Rain City Drive, Sleep Theory, and so many more. He's gotten number ones on multiple charts, a billboarding, a billboard charting machine head single, and billions of streams across his catalog. He's co-founded Your Onim Academy, Nail the Mix, the biggest online school for rock and metal producers on the planet. And he co-built the software company Drumforge, whose plugins and samples are on records all over the world, including on every single one of my mixes.
Over the last five years. He also happens to be one of the fastest mixing engineers alive. Joel Wanasek. Thank you for being here, man.
Joel (00:38.157)
Man, that's a that's a lot to live up to here. Jeez.
Andrew (00:40.644)
Ha ha ha.
Andrew (00:44.536)
You got some great stuff. I love it, man. Well man
Joel (00:46.127)
Well thank you. Thank you for having me, Andrew. I appreciate coming on.
Andrew (00:48.716)
Like likewise, man. So one of the first things that I I really wanted to dive into was you said that you can clear a mix in around thirty to forty-five minutes. and once once mixed eighteen songs in a single day. also I also heard that on the URM podcast you'd mixed over five hundred songs in a single year. so I'm I'm curious to know what happens during those first thirty to forty five minutes.
That are not happening in someone else's six hours. Sometimes people think more means better, but obviously not.
Joel (01:20.217)
Sure. Sure. Well, okay. So I've I've adapted my just to add some context. I'm mixing not quite as fast. Maybe I'm just getting old. the these times because I'm a lot of the song stuff material that I'm mixing is very different. So for example, like last week alone I mixed like an active rock song, I mixed an Americana song, I mixed a synth wave one yesterday. So you know, I'm kind of all over the place.
Andrew (01:29.336)
Yeah.
Joel (01:47.436)
When you are doing something that is very similar, like a death core record where there's not gonna be very many production changes, like once you got the guitar tone, you're good. You know, you can rip out twelve songs in
not very long time if you have it in one session. And you have a good prep system and stuff like that. So you know it is genre dependent how fast you can mix. But there are a lot of guys that run and gun like CLA, for example, or Billy Decker, who are also very fast mixers because I feel like great mixing. Here's here's a good thing to explain it. Like when you're
You know, the difference between like say Chris Lord Algy Andy Wallace, like any of those guys, they know every mixing trick you've ever heard of. You know, they can all EQ, they can all compress, you know, any great mixer can do all of these things. But
their ability to interpret the song and feel it and capture the emotion out of it and stuff, that's what separates. So as I've gotten older and way more experienced, I've focused more on emotional impact in my mixing. And this is something I did talk about back in speed mixing and I was really, really harping on. But so g sorry, give me the original question. I I just wanted to set some context before I answer it directly.
Andrew (02:52.078)
That's that's great context. the but I'm curious to know, like what happens during your even just first thirty, forty five minutes to hour that other people aren't doing in their first six hours?
Joel (03:01.773)
Sure. Okay. So you gotta think about it like this. It's like the artist in a park. you walk up to an artist, they do these little caricatures, and you sit you see them and they're like, All right, well, draw my wife. And they're gonna in five minutes, they're done, and you're like, Whoa, that looks amazing. And the artist is like, Cool, now give me a hundred and fifty dollars. You're like, you just spent five minutes doing that, and then they give you the stone cold look to like five minutes and thirty years. So the answer is,
When you're younger in your career and less experienced and you haven't mixed like at least a thousand songs, what's gonna happen is you're gonna sit there and you're gonna be like, and I again all mixers do have this problem. Like I will find mixes where I have to sit there and grind it out for five hours. It does happen. However, a lot of times, in mixing, I don't make those decisions, right? Like the samples the producer gives me are the samples that I roll with most of the time. So, you know, j just one example. So like
When you're mixing, I think a lot of people get hung up on, is this the perfect snare drum? Or like, is this, you know, because again, you could argue if that's mixing or producing. A producer is technically supposed to make those decisions for you, right? They decide what the production is. Like if you're mixing pop music, you don't change the clap sample. I mean, maybe you do, but you better call the producer and ask them because you will get fired, and I have, for
Trying to come in like the metal way and just be like, well, I'm the mixer. I'm gonna mix with an ego. This is how this is my sound. This is my kick sample, my snare. You know, that stuff, it does funnel into the rock world a bit. And I have done a lot of active rock, but you can start going into other genres, you know, like you're doing country music. It gets really a lot of producers I work with are very particular about the productions, which makes it much faster to mix. So an experien inexperienced mixer would be like, well, I don't like the snare they picked.
So I'm gonna sit there for like 40 minutes and just try to pick this snare. I don't do that as a mixer. I open up, I listen to the reference for about 20 seconds. I get through like one chorus, maybe 30 to 45 tops. My assistant has everything prepped, everything is laid out on my board exactly where I want it in predictable spaces with a in a systematized fashion. So when I start touching the board or clicking on a mouse or my control surface in front of me, I am immediately connecting emotionally with the song and focusing on that one goal.
Joel (05:15.351)
So, you know, it's very big picture. I don't care if I like the bass tone or not. I care if I can get the bass tone to work amongst the other elements in the mix. Does that make sense? So instead of s obsessing, like, I don't like the production decision of this guitar tone, I need to re-amp it. Of course, like I said, there are mixes that I do have to do that, obviously, of course. But for the majority of things that I work with, I work on with really good producers.
And I really want to do it now. Back in the day when I was doing we originally came out with Speed Mix when I was mixing for Joey and we were clearing insane amounts of stuff. Because now I'm doing like I think I probably did about two a little between 215 to 220 songs last year. I think that I I finished that actually will be released or have been released. So you know, I I keep I've kept up over about 200 a year because I did take a little bit of time off from mixing, but when was mixing for Joey.
And we had all he was the metal core king, and every metal core band on the planet wanted to work with him. And they all wanted the same sound, no matter how hard we tried to change it. You know, we were just rifling songs. So it was easy for us to be very, very focused because we're like, all right, here's our five sets of drum samples that work. You know, it's like Lego pieces. We can just choose this, do that, and like that's what they wanted. You know, here's our three guitar tones. And it was like just trying to find something that works in the band and kind of putting the pieces together again. So then
you can start mixing emotionally and like how do I get this song to lock in? What's the right feel? You know? is the China symbol loud enough on the breakdown, et cetera. Like am I bobbing my head? Is the bass you know what mean? So think about it like that. Like again, it's a very, it's a very emotional and creative way to mix. And it's not like it's not sitting there getting lost in the weeds. Cause here here's also a good analogy. Okay. The difference between like a professional mixer versus like somebody that's aspiring to be is somebody sitting at home
You know, you've got unlimited time to usually work on a mix because maybe you're mixing your own band. By the way, I cannot mix my own band. I did like 13 revisions on the last thing and I I still have them put it out. And I was listening to it the other day. I'm like, should I remix this? And I'm like, you know what? It doesn't matter. Like, is the song good? Yes or no? So it's it's when you're working on your own music, man, you can go, you can go forever. It'll never be good enough. It'll never be done. When you're an actual mixer, you're on a clock for most projects. So I can't tell you how many times I'm sitting here chilling. I'm like Monday, and I get hit up by a manager and be like, yo.
Andrew (07:05.647)
Ha ha ha.
Joel (07:29.165)
we got a song coming out Friday. Can you can you do it? You know, can you get it done? Can we get it to mastering Friday? I'm like, yeah. And then I don't get the files till like two o'clock on Thursday because the producer took their lolly time, which is fine. You know, they want it to be the best possible. And then I'm sitting there and I'm like running gun, you know. So my assistant preps it up. I don't, I don't start, I'm not sitting there when I'm mixing, also like routing things or everything is like laid out. I mix the song. I don't have to think about technical stuff because
Like I said, I've built a system to eliminate that. I have an assistant who I've been working with for twelve years who was with me through all of that stuff we did with Joey, like the crazy, crazy times we were like in that five hundred mark where we were just like, you know, running and gunning. It's like, all right, we did 43 songs this month. It was painful, man. There were there were days where I like literally just worked like, like I said, you you're in the studio like fourteen to twelve hours and you do that six, seven days a week. And then if you do take a day off, it's usually like a half day.
Andrew (08:26.062)
That's wild, man. That's wild. That's that is cool to hear though. I I'm curious to know, 'cause you had mentioned mixing for emotional impact. What if you could define this for for the listener, what would that that would that be to you?
Joel (08:40.537)
Sure. I I call it the mom test, right? Like I'll give you an ex the b the story sums it up the best. Is when I was younger, I was really proud of this mix I did. And, you know, I went over by my parents and I showed my mom, I'm like, listen to this band, because I figured this was something she would like. And she goes, I'm like, Okay, well, listen to this mix. What do you think? And she's like, I like this song. I'm like, Yeah, but like, what about the mix? And she's like, Yeah, it's really good song. I'm like, No, but how does it sound? She's like, well, I hadn't really thought about it, you know?
Like the point is it with connecting, right? So for me, when I talk about like emotion and mixing and finding like the pocket, which I'm always railing about on Instagram stories, is like I when I have my intern in here, I like to show him this. You know, these kids will sit here and I'll be like, all right, watch this. We turn the high eye head up a half a db here. How does it change the feel? The feel's not like a right. If we bring it down, now we get the boom, ca, a boom, a ka, right? It's a different kind of feel. And we can feel the bass playing in between that. And then if we
Turn the hi head up a little bit and turn the kick drum down or turn up the bass. Now we kind of, you know, it's like a toe, all of those grooves work for this song, but which one sinks you in and makes it perfect and just makes you want to like get into the song. So when you're mixing, a great mixer is not like I said, we can all EQ, we can all compress, we can all, you know, do parallel saturation to the rear bust, whatever. Like everybody knows how to do all of these things. However,
You're not focusing on that. You're trying to bring the song. So when somebody listens to the song, they hear a song, not a great mix. Because a great mix becomes transparent. They hit play and they're like, Yeah, the song's done. So like when I people are like, the mix is never done done. You've never you've seen these memes on the internet, you know. They're like a dude, a skeleton laying over the board, like revision four hundred and seventy-five. It's not really true. You can finish mixes, it's not hard. I do it every day. I mean, it is hard, but after a certain point you've mixed enough of them where most of the time
Andrew (10:25.976)
Ha ha ha ha.
Joel (10:35.297)
Unless you have some like crazy scenario or some song that's not produced very well or arranged very well, you have to finish mixes because that's your job is to finish mixes. And a mix is finished when you hit play and it feels like a song. You know, yeah, could you maybe EQ the guitar or pull this frequency out, or maybe, but there's a difference between it being done and you hitting play and be like, wow, there it is. This sounds great, it feels great. The song is like really d pulling me in. And it's a little different because I had this.
the the hi hat brighter here and I turn this down I you know what mean? It's it's different but not necessarily better, if that makes sense. So either it connects or it doesn't is what I'm saying. And that when a song is connecting and you'll know it because like you're in it when you're mixing it. You don't realize you're tapping your foot. You're not just sitting there at your computer like drooling on yourself. You're like really
You know, you're you don't even realize that subconsciously you're tapping and you're just rocking out and you're in the song. You can feel it, you know, like lyrics, they raise the hair on your arms, you know, you you get like emotional, you're like, God, this is you're texting the artist, like, man, this song is incredible. You're just getting hyped when you do it. That's how you know you're hitting it. And when you're struggling, you're not hitting it. You're like something's off. So, you know, start with your fader balance. Try to get it there, and then start worrying about like, is my snare 200 hertz? You know, loud enough.
And I think that's I also want to make a a distinction here. I think this is what makes mixing metal really hard is like metal is kind of it leads itself to like a high level of you know, I'll jokingly call it like metal autism, where we're like so technically focused on like the most insane details that we shouldn't care about. And we're yeah in metal we chase mix perfection where like everything is like perfect, but per perfect mixes aren't usually the ones that get people exciting. Like go listen to old TLA mixes from back in the day.
And like it's crazy because like you'll hear things that are like really unbalanced, or like what? You'll be like, God, that really works though. It's really good, you know? And it's like there's certain decisions that were made where you're like, if we were mixing with like a metal mindset, we're trying to get this perfectly, you know, every little frequency pitched, it would be very, very, very wrong for a lot of music. So I think that's a hard part about mixing metal is trying to bring some sort of emotion or groove. And I feel like sometimes people miss the mark because you hear these mixes.
Joel (12:46.253)
And they're like they're technically good, but they're they're not good in terms of like they don't lock you in the song. Like they're a little fatiguing or they're too over the top or like the pocket doesn't feel right where you're just like it just kinda you just start you just you lose you lose the excitement when you're listening. Like there's no edge, you know what I mean? Like there's nothing that kind of like jumps out. And that's what I like about like pop mixes and rock mixes and you know, things like that is you you you find people are a little bit they're not chasing perfection, they're changing chasing emotion and
You know, I don't know. That's just one of the things I've seen as I've moved into that world heavily the last few years and just done a ton of work and genres outside heavy stuff.
Andrew (13:23.308)
yeah. I love that. I noticed a trend when I started listening to metal where it was like it was very raw sounding and then it went super high polished. And then I I I feel like there's cer certain sub branches of metal that are now branching off and trying to bring that r kind of for lack of a better term, raw sound back. But I like your term emotion. It's kind of trying to bring that emotion back. We can actually hear the drummer ac like getting into that kit instead of everything being like sample replaced to a hundred percent all the time.
Joel (13:49.988)
Right. Yeah, it's like we've sterilized it. Does that make sense? Like a lot of mixes to me sound very sterilized. It's like they're overly soothed. They're overly I mean, which are great tools, but it's like everything is like so mid range, balanced, and like there's nothing that kind of like like sometimes when I listen to older mixes, like it makes me physically like want to hit somebody or like get in a pit, you know what I mean? Or like or like lift weights. And when I listen to a lot of these new mixes, I'm like, yeah, that sounds good.
Andrew (13:50.892)
Unless the drummer sucks. Yeah.
Joel (14:14.755)
You know what I mean? Like that's the emotion I get. I I very neutral. Where like I'll throw on like Pantera and I'm like, Man, this is not mixed by modern standards, what we would consider like great. But this mix makes me wanna like get up and like hit the weights and do some push ups or something, you know?
Andrew (14:30.51)
Completely agree with you. Man, you have this this metric that changed my life years ago when I heard it. but PPMC or price per mouse click. Every click costs you money. So when did you start seeing your own workflow that way? and when did it change?
Joel (14:48.577)
Okay, that's a great question. PPMC. I gotta remember that from Speed Mixing One. Okay, so I have three kids and multiple businesses, which all of them are full-time jobs, especially the one that requires me to mix.
And you know, like I like I said, I didn't mix over 200 songs last year, but I also mastered over 300 as well, even though I consider myself a mixing engineer, not so much a mastering engineer, but I have excellent mastering credits and thousands of them. And like what gets me what gets me going in life is like do you have children? Okay, you understand how old are they? man. Okay, you're not gonna understand the driving thing yet, but you will soon.
Andrew (15:22.638)
Two. Yes.
Three and one and a half.
Joel (15:31.716)
But dude, I feel for you. So you're how you getting any sleep? Yeah, you're living the dream right now. Good for you though. I think when you see people who are like successful out there doing it in the world, you're like, cool. But when I see people that have kids that are really like high performers, I'm like, yeah, you know, that takes a special breed because it the everything in your body will tell you to stop when you have young kids. So I've got three kids, and because I've got three kids and I want to be present as a dad and still be like an absolute psychopath.
Andrew (15:34.488)
somewhat.
Joel (16:01.613)
like performer in the field, I've had to really structure my life and think very cleverly about how I do things and how I optimize time. Like I don't waste time. So for me, when we were mixing that many songs, and even now, again, mixing 200 songs again on top of having all these meetings every week and having to produce a ton of content and social media stuff. And you there there's just so many things to do on any given day. Like th they could be a full time job.
And then on top of that, it's like, let's go crazy and mix a ton of songs, as many as possible. And you know, mixing is you know how mixing is. It's like you're sitting there and you're like, it's 11 o'clock at night. And it's like, hey man, we're trying to get this one over the line in Japan. Can you come in real quick and just do a one more revision, which turns into 17 rounds back and forth? You get home at 4 a.m. and then you still have to get up at six and take your kid to school. So that that stuff gets me. So for me
I've had to figure out how to structure my life. So I started thinking about like everywhere you move the mouse. And this also came from designing plugins and like UIs. Every time you move the mouse, if you're down here and you've got to move it up here to like hit save, that is like that's a lot of drag when you do it. Say if you're gonna hit save, I have a psycho saving thing where I'll I make like three or four moves and I hit save when I'm mixing. Yeah, I know some people do auto saves, but it's not fast enough for me. I like to leave if it crashes or something happens, I wanna pick up right where I left off. So I have I have like a saving
Fetish where I hit save after almost every move. So I had to bind it to a key command, which it should, you know, or any move like import files or any anything that requires me to move the mouse more from here to there. I try to get it on a key command because it's faster and I have two hands. Just like I love having a control surface and a console in front of me because it allows me to mix with my hands. You can't balance when you have a mouse, you can only grab one thing at a time. And you can control click a couple of things and move them as a group, but it's really annoying because, like, for example,
Say you've got six guitar mics. Now, when I would have mixed that 10 years ago, I would have just thrown that trash out and picked the one that sounds good and ripped off that. Now I have fingers, and now I can balance those faders against each other in real time and find a blend. And then I can copy and paste those levels to the other side if I want. And it's it's really easy and fast to do that with control surface. And I like it because you can feel the mix and you can touch it and you can automate it and go back and it's perfect.
Joel (18:17.869)
And I I've even taken because my physical console faders don't have automation on it, but I used a West Audio NG level and I control it with a UF8. And it's nice because the it's analog fader, but it's digital precision and recall. And being able to use your fingers. So again, anything that removes unnecessary movement or mouse clicks is going to speed it up. And again, you might not think like, going up and having this macro, you know, it only takes you two seconds. Well, yeah, if you do it like 1000 times in a year.
Well, that adds up to being something substantial, you know? So it's kind of like again, when you've got kids, you gotta optimize your time because my life is like I might get in at seven twenty in the morning and I might go crazy and rip as hard as I can. Then like four twenty comes and I gotta run and take a kid to soccer practice. Then I gotta run back to my office to punch out some revisions. Cause again, it may be like five o'clock here, but in LA it's three in the afternoon. Half those dudes are waking up and they're they're like throwing stuff in your inbox. Like, yeah, dude, can we get this to distro at five? I'm like, bro, no warning. But again.
You just get it done, man, because that's that's if you want to work, you gotta stay, you gotta really be aggressive. So, you know, and then it's like you gotta run, drop the other kid off, then run back to the office for 45 minutes, and go pick up the other kid from the you know, palms and then bring her back, you know what I mean? And then you're back to the office. Now it's like 8:30 at night, you gotta run to the store. So for me, I've I've realized that because I I have my office in a central location, I've optimized my workflows with absolutely ridiculous precision, and I have an assistant as well.
You know, that that's what it takes to have that kind of output and not compromise. Because this is important, I will say this is that when people think about like speed mixing, they're like, you must be compromising or taking shortcuts. I'm like, no, it's the opposite of that. The the point of speed mixing is just remove all the bullshit so you can actually just mix and focus on mixing and not sitting there and being like, I gotta set up an aux and then I gotta run a parallel to this, and then I gotta do this side chain thing. It's already set up for you on or off. You know what I mean?
And that's the difference. That's a lot of saved mouse clicks. So, you know, PPMC and price per mouse click. You know, if you're getting paid say fifteen hundred dollars to mix that song and a point, it's kind of just like, you know, your time is expensive and that adds up very, very quickly in the real world. So you gotta be able to really be efficient.
Andrew (20:18.712)
Ha ha ha.
Andrew (20:32.61)
Th this metric alone was what ended up taking me full time. when I had, you know, two jobs and a wife and I was like like wanted to have kids and a family and I was like, I've gotta figure this out because in order to make this work, I had to do something, you know, and I realized like as kids were gonna come along, time was gonna get tough. one thing that I I noticed where I've always loved video games, but I I w I would watch like some of the world's top Doom players watch their own game tape and I and they were like
Joel (20:57.379)
Yes.
Andrew (21:00.084)
they were looking at their inefficiencies and they would film their fingers on their keys and like look at their inefficiencies. Like we could tighten this up, we can move this over here. Cause if I have to move my finger from here to here, right? I was like, this is and I just implemented that into the D A W. It's one of the main reasons why I love Studio One for its macros and why I have a s a stream deck on my on my desk for being able to press buttons and it just does multiple things at once. That PPM C is is killer. for anybody I
Joel (21:25.443)
You're very right about gaming. That was something also because I remember watching I used to excuse me. I used to play Quake like hardcore and then Quake Three way back in the day. And you know, just watching these guys like just optimize their, you know, specific mice and like just adjusting your mouse speed to be as fast as it possibly can and learning how to so you can just twitch your wrist. And again, the same thing in mixing. It's like you don't realize how much mouse travel you have. So I I've set my
Andrew (21:32.042)
Mm. Yes.
Joel (21:52.46)
sessions up like I said to be minimal. So for for example, I don't write a lot of automation. I click on it and I use my mouse wheel and I have it set and it does clip game. So I'm just like, cut, cut, clip. That's it. There's your automation. The kick drum went down to DB in the verse.
Andrew (22:09.154)
That it's so good. It's so good. The I will say the the gaming technology, like gaming mice like the Stream Deck and stuff like that, like using it for for productivity is such an absolute hack. you had mentioned that you know faster actually doesn't necessarily mean worse, it actually means better. And it's people I think get this backwards all the time. It was a light bulb moment for me when I was talking with one of my favorite bands and they talked about how they spent like three years on this album and
They didn't spend three years on twelve songs. They spent three years on almost eighty songs and picked the best twelve. And that was a light bulb moment for me where was like, so how much of speed for you, if any, is really about protecting yourself from your own worst instincts?
Joel (22:41.145)
Yes.
Joel (22:49.837)
Okay, there's two factors that nobody talks about except for me. when it comes to this, is that there's two like when you start mixing, you're racing against a clock. So this is why I think speed matters. And again, on the internet, people will you know, people like to react to the title or the thumbnail because it's meant to get a reaction to get clicks. but they don't listen to the substance and think about the methodology and then go, okay, that makes sense. Or no, I don't like that. That doesn't work for me, which is also fine.
But you know what I'm saying? Like people just jump to conclusions. It's like every time I have a reel go viral on Instagram, you see these comments who are like, you didn't watch more than three seconds. You you literally are comment about something that I literally say 30 seconds in. But anyways, so when it comes to hold on, I lost my train of thought. you what the question was thank you. Two things. First is when you start mixing your ears fatigue.
Andrew (23:40.334)
Protecting yourself from your own worst instincts.
Joel (23:46.094)
Okay, now what do I mean? Think picture like a graph, right? And get math. And you start out up here and it l just logarithmically tapers off, right? So basically what that means is as you work, you're always gonna be fresh as the first time you come in and like in the morning or in the afternoon, whatever you sit down and mix, or if you've taken two hours off and maybe like dropped your kids off or taken a hike or you know, went to the bar and had a drink or something, you know, whatever. Whatever you do, you know, you come back, you sit in the studio, you hit play, and you're like, this is off. You know, your ears are rested and they're fresh.
Unless you live in an area that has a lot of loud fatiguing sounds. but your ears are gonna be fresh. And then as you start working, you start fatiguing. And you might notice this because here's here's the proof. You'll be sitting there at like three in the morning, you've been pounding on a mix for like eight hours, and you're making good decisions in your brain. You come back the next day, you open it up in the car with fresh ears, and you're like, What the hell was I thinking? And you're just like, This is terrible. I can't believe I made these decisions. And you know, because
Your hearing drops off, especially when you start notchy cuing guitars and cymbals, that'll blow out your ears. And you know what I'm talking about, right? Like you start doing a lot of narrow EQs and spike moves and stuff like that. What's gonna happen is you're gonna sit there and you're gonna be My ears are cooked. And then you gotta physically go out and do something else for like 45 minutes and your ears won't be the same. So so what I'm saying is when you sit down to mix, you're working against a clock on your hearing because your hearing's getting worse, even when you monitor at low levels. Not only that, you get ear fatigue.
Andrew (24:48.109)
yeah.
Joel (25:10.041)
But mental fatigue. Okay. So think about this. You have what's called a zone, you know, I call it like flow state, right? Flow state is the common term for it. Where it's like, how do I explain it? maybe you've been in the studio and like you get a call from like an artist or like a, you know, somebody's like, hey, I need a sync placement or, you know, I need this or that. And all of sudden, like an artist walks in, it's eight in the morning, you're starting your session, and they're like, I don't have anything. Write me a beat. And you're like, yeah, got it.
You know, all of a sudden, like you're like, I'm on the clock. I have four people standing behind me. I need to deliver. And like you get locked in. And then like you just go. And then like two hours later, you've got this thing that you've created, and you're like, you're exhausted. You're like, man, like, whoo! And you got you have to take a rest. Same thing with mixing is like when you get into a mix, you start going, right? And you're not really frustrated unless everything is produced terribly. And you know, every you you're just going, you're mixing.
And then all of a sudden you kind of hit that wall where you're Yeah, this is done now. What do I need to do? It's like, is this snare good enough? You start overthinking it and you start getting frustrated. And that's the point you need to stop because you've lost perspective. You start macroing or microwing your decisions instead of macroing. And which is weird because mixing is the ultimate dichotomy. It's like it's a very micro technical thing, but it's a very macro emotional thing. And you have to be able to zoom in and then quickly zoom out. And if you spend too much time zoomed in, you're gonna burn out your brain.
And then you have to go take like a 20, 30 minute walk. So one thing that we don't have now that the older generation had, and I know we I know some of us like to not me. I actually have so much respect for for the generation because like I've never the people from that generation, they knew their stuff, man. It's like you sit in the room with these guys and you're like, Whoa, like their recording knowledge is is crazy. And they had rewind time is what I'm trying to say. So, like when you'd mix something, they'd be All right, we gotta rewind, sit back like.
however long it takes to rewind a tape. I've never worked on tape. So minute, two minutes, whatever. So now all of a sudden, like you get a two minute break. So it kind of be mix for five minutes, stand up, do three air squats, sit down, and then mix. And then stand up for, you know, five minutes and stand up and do a couple push-ups, maybe walk out in the lounge, come back. That's the only way you can kind of simulate it. But the point is is when you sit down and you've stepped out of the room, your brain is not hyper fixating in micro mode and you're just listening to it. It's kind of like when you turn off your screen and you hit play.
Joel (27:26.329)
And you're like, dude, my bass is too loud, or white, these vocals feel a little bit abrasive here. And that's when you hear those macro things that you can't hear when your brain's fatiguing. So your ears drop off, your mental ability to focus hardcore drops off. You know, and it's different for different people on different days. Did you sleep? What's your diet? But you might get two hours of like hardcore brain power, right? And then you kind of have to rest and you might get a burst later in the day. So that to me is like why speed matters is you're juiced.
Right with your energy and your brain, you're ready to rock, you're locked in, as my kids would say. And not only are you locked in, but your ears are fresh. So you're racing against the clock. You want to try to get the mix as close to done as possible as you can in that period of time. And even if it's not perfect, again, you can always then rest, come back a little bit later, like maybe print some stems or get on the phone, call some clients, whatever. Then hit play and you'll be like,
And then you got your little spurt again and you won't be as fatigued. So you kind of gotta like, you know, just like sprinting, right? If you and I went out and all out sprinted, we might last 30 to seconds to 50 seconds before we're gassed. And now if we wait 40 seconds, like an interval train interval training, high intensity interval training, we would then sprint again. But we're not gonna go quite as fast the second time and quite as far. We're gonna be cooked. And then the third time, so our bodies fatigue. But we don't think about this or talk about this when we're mixing, but this is a real thing.
So when you're just sitting there eight hours and you're bloodshot, drooling at the screen, swearing because you can't get the guitar toned, like it's probably time to stop. You're not making it better, you're just making it different most of the time.
Andrew (28:57.135)
Yes.
Andrew (29:00.883)
Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people make things different and then try to call it better or worse. there there's a thing called Altradian rhythms that I learned about, which basically is just about 90 to 120 minutes of f dedicated focused effort that happens about once a day, sometimes twice a day if you're lucky, and that's it. And w when I learned about those, that was like life-changing for me because I realized if I was spending the majority of my time clicking through
you know, samples and I didn't have those ready to go or loaded. And I was spending the majority of my time trying to set up a template instead of having a template, I was spending that high quality, really just like the best first squeeze for my brain on the useless stuff. and so I started splitting my sessions into multiple different sections. I called one-time work, which is building up my templates and building up my sessions, f having a list of samples that I just use all the time. and then I have I then I would split my mixing sessions into
macro and micro. I I didn't call it that, but I like how you mentioned macro and micro. We're basically I know that I'm gonna get a lot of ear fatigue doing notchy queuing. And so I'm not gonna do notchy queuing, even though I think I may need to I need to right now. I'm just gonna avoid that until a little bit later. so being able to split your sessions up like that can be helpful. It also keeps the person focused on what they're actually trying to solve for. Instead of just throwing plugins on and trying to twist knobs just for the sake of doing it.
Joel (30:18.541)
That is something I see all the time, having done mixing education for well over a decade now. And you know, after a certain period of expi of experience in your life, it's kind of like you watch somebody do something and then predict like five. It's like playing chess. You can watch somebody, they're like, okay. Yep, then they correct it, and then they go back and they're four plugins in, and then they're fixing the thing that they did on plugin one. I see that all the time. Here's the difference between like goat mixers.
Goaded mixers and like everybody else is like you'll see somebody like Andy Wallace or CLA, they'll go in and they'll make like one, two, or three moves, and they'll do what would take somebody 12 moves. And the difference is they will make the right move the first time. That's the difference. It's a big difference, and it it's something that takes a very long time to learn how to do, but just immediately identifying and like it needs to sound exactly like this. One, two, three.
Andrew (31:03.353)
It's so good. Yeah.
Joel (31:13.517)
As opposed to I did this and then I started notching this out, then we added a saturator and another saturator and this or this or that. Sometimes you take all that crap off. And I try this sometimes, like when I'll when I'll go nuts on like a guitar, and I've got like eight plugins on this thing and like 20 EQ cuts. And I'm like, what am I doing? And I'll just be like, all right, duplicate the group and and let's let's take all this crap off. And then like, all right, hands up, can I do this with just like two EQ moves? And then I'll do it and I'll be like, damn, that sounds better. I keep the same thing, you know?
Andrew (31:40.397)
Yeah.
Joel (31:42.914)
And that all that happens to me all the time. So, you know, I try to think about like, what would Andy Wallace do? You know, if you watched Andy Wallace mix, he kind of just like raises the fader and he just goes like turns the the EQ and he just like it's like it's like there. And you're like, dude, that sounds sick. And you're like, Why doesn't do that when I do that? You know what I mean?
Andrew (32:02.351)
Andy Wallace is insane at what he does. The the the my my favorite thing that I see all the time, somebody will add a saturation plug in and then they'll a add notch cueing because the saturator added harmonic frequencies. And then they do another saturator to warm up the thing that they just killed. And it's it's like, my gosh, it happens all the time. But you know, it's sometimes I catch myself doing this too. You know, it's like sometimes you forget the moves that you made ten minutes ago, because you've made so many moves and why you made those moves. Exactly. Exactly.
Joel (32:06.423)
Unbelievable.
Joel (32:20.964)
Yeah.
Joel (32:27.587)
And why. Yeah. Mixing with intention. That's that's really the I mean, if there's like one thing to work on, I mean, again, that's not for a beginner to work on. I think mixing with intention is they don't they don't know what they're doing or what's good or bad. But like when you're intermediate or advanced, just focusing on like mixing with intention, be like, what am I doing and why? You're gonna ask yourself, like, okay, what am I hearing? And I this is where having an intern is good because you have to explain it to them, or like you're teaching, right? That's why I like teaching, because it's like, okay, well.
I'm hearing this and then my brain wants to go this, but I think it's this instead. So I'm gonna try that. Okay, that didn't work. Okay, it was my original instinct. I was overthinking it. We just needed to notch out something out of the symbols.
Andrew (33:10.413)
I love that. I I there's a old quote that says, A good teacher learns twice. And it's one of those things like you learn to do it subconsciously, and then you learn consciously how to actually transfer that skill. It's one thing to have a skill, it's another thing to transfer a skill to somebody else. and the the clearer you get on why you do what you do, the easier it is to transfer that skill to somebody else. so you've like really built you know, a a reputation on speed, having efficient systems. Those systems literally change my life. I'm like, that's literally like
Joel (33:23.161)
Totally.
Joel (33:28.791)
Hundred percent.
Andrew (33:38.042)
The reason why I'm full time now is because I was able to take the those mixing like efficiencies and bring that in. and then you ended up buying this like gigantic analog console. and you mentioned having to like relearn everything. so I'm curious to know, like to me this sounds like the opposite of efficiency. I sold all my analog gear because I hated analog recall. I hated it. And so I got rid of it all. so yeah, I don't recall. You just don't recall.
Joel (33:58.104)
Don't recall.
Joel (34:02.519)
Yeah, well I mean I do, but I I I can go finish your question. I can explain how I do it.
Andrew (34:07.351)
You're good. Yeah. So I'm curious to know. It sounds like to me this sounds like the opposite of efficiency, so I'm curious to why do it.
Joel (34:11.959)
Okay, it's actually faster because it's easier to mix on a board. Things come together way quicker and you need way less pro plugins and way less processing. And I think way less EQ. Probably I probably use like twenty to forty per I don't know. I'm pulling numbers out of my ass, but a lot less EQing.
A lot because things how do explain it? Like when I take things out of the board and I raise my faders, and this is the thing, if nobody's mixed on a console, they'll know they'll never believe you. I'll not be like, prove it was science. And I'm like, dude, just shut up and get your ass in this room for five minutes and use your ears. Well, you can't trust your ears. And I'm like, I get paid a lot of effing money for people who trust my ears. So I I can hear very small differences, as can anybody else who does this for a living. So I gotta I gotta take my shots. okay, so
When you're mixing in the box, I feel like I raise the fader and I'm like, I immediately want to start EQing things. When I raise the fader on my board, I'm like, yeah, that sounds good. And then I'll raise the next one and I'll be like, yeah.
Raise the next one and be maybe a little tone shaping. But like things just naturally come together in a way that they don't in a computer where the computer fights you for whatever reason. and the board just has a way of making things go together a little bit more organically and easily. And they things are more separated, they're clear, they interact, they gel more, it requires less EQ. And it really pisses me off because when I will take a flat mix, right, where I kind of just like I've got it, and I'll show this to like again when my interns are in here.
I'll I'll take the board, I'll be watch this. I'll be like, here's the board, and here's what it sounds like printed before we drop it into the board. And it's like, whoa! It's like it just went like this and this and this. There's all this separation and death. I'm like, I know. People don't believe me. And I'm like, it's crazy. Just listen to the difference. And they're like, that's not even it's it's like undeniably obvious. And it's it's crazy. So again, it's like it's like mixing with a cheat code almost. I feel like I it's like when you had Nintendo back in the game.
Joel (36:04.547)
Day and you had to get Game Genie, that little golden thing, like old OGs will know what I'm talking about. Some, you know, the younger kids will be like, okay, grandpa, but you had to use a game genie little add-on with the cheat codes to get to win the game. So it's like throwing the game genie on your Nintendo game. You it just gets like 20% easier overnight. So the thing is is like mixing is faster on a board. Things come together, they move more. You have, you know, it's easier to EQ.
Things sit in space. The compression sounds way different and way cooler. The EQ separates things out way it's just so much easier to mix on. But there's the hard part of it, which is like you said, the recall, it's gonna slow you down. Okay, so you do gain some speed on the mixing side because you need to make less decisions to get things to work greater. However, how do you get past the recall? And I thought.
Very, very, very, very long and hard about this because when I went to analog, I was in the box for a very long time. And then I realized I was listening, I was like very critically listening to older recordings versus newer mixes, and I noticed a few things that really shocked me. And I would go back and forth and like Spotify, and I was just like, Whoa, you know, listening to like somebody who mixed on a board versus in the box, and like technically the mixes were just as good, but you know, different mixers on a technical level, but you're like, man.
This one just hits so much harder and it just sounds so much more separated and like it it it creates an emotional reaction in me. And it's like ever I I you can really learn a lot by just listening to different mixes very clear and listening to different things. Nobody does this, I feel like. I mean a few people do, but most people aren't sitting down listening to like mixes from different eras and paying attention to like what is the space between instruments sound like? How are we gluing?
You know, I know we're on tape, so we don't have many transients, but when I turn this mix up really loud, how does it feel? How does it compress on a speaker? What about in my car? Now, what about this new modern digital the one that's done a hundred percent in the box, mastered in the box? You know, why is it it sounds really good, quiet, but when I crank it up, it doesn't get any more powerful. It just stays the same energy. And then I crank it up really loud, and then I go back to something from like twenty five years ago and I turn it up and it hits way frickin' harder.
Joel (38:10.637)
And it has way more energy and way more movement and like it gets way more exciting. And it's like you start noticing these trends. So this is something I couldn't deny after a while. And I'm like, I want to keep some of that energy and move it into a modern context because I feel like I feel like we're forgetting that sound. And I feel like it affects the emotions of the listener. And I have enough evidence from people that I've worked with and my own absolutely insane tests and hours and hours, months of tests that I've done with my assistant, who also has fantastic ears.
And like to the point where we went insane testing things and we ended up back on gear. Okay, so that being said, bring me back to to Rome here. What we're we were talking about. I want to specifically answer your question. I was setting up some context. Recall, right? Okay, recall. So sonically, I wanted it. How do I get past?
Andrew (38:53.475)
Yeah, recall. Yep, makes recall.
Joel (38:59.053)
The crappy part that nobody wants to. Like I said, don't recall. So, you know, there's like a famous line. there's a finance book by a guy named Robert Kiyosaki called Rich Dad, Poor Dad. And he says, the difference between poor people and rich per people is a poor person says, I can't afford that, and a rich person says, How can I afford that? You know, it's like one of those platitudes, right? So it the difference between like being able to mix on analog or not is you you ask, How can I?
make recall work into my life versus I don't want to deal with that. You understand the difference between the mindsets, right? It's a big mindset. Because then now it's a problem to be solved as opposed to just I'm writing something off because I'm I'm too damn lazy. No offense to anybody, but I'm too damn lazy to figure it out. Like I want to I don't want to I don't want to challenge myself because it is a problem to figure out. So how did I figure it out? Okay. when I got the origin, the origin's a dumb colour
Andrew (39:37.388)
Yeah.
Joel (39:49.102)
And the reason I bought the origin is because I got it used for a very good price from some trust fund kid in Nashville who wasn't using it and it was a year old. So, you know, thank you, Daddy, for your money. I got a really damn good deal on it. I saved a lot of money. It was in min condition, very low use hours. And I was looking at like an AWS and I'm like, do I really want to pay that much for a board that might be replaced in a couple of years by whatever new they're probably working on? Which they came out with, I forgot what they call it, but
I didn't like that thing, that fully digital board that SSL put up. I I'm not in love with that. I th I I well, I I don't want to go off trap topic. I didn't like it. I did try it. it wasn't for me. I think it's very, very expensive and I I didn't want to spend that much money. So I was looking at an AWS 948 and I was like, dude, the stereo fader with the stereo EQ is the best thing anybody's ever done in analog because you how it is, like 90% of the stuff you mix is gonna be in stereo, if not 98. You know, you I I think I have like four channels. I have like a base.
vocals and kick and snare, you know. And I don't always get because sometimes people use samples, right? So very rarely do I even get real kick and snare to run into those channels. So I was like, man, I don't want to pay 3x the price for an AWS or 4X or I don't remember, but they're they're a lot, you know, they're at least $120,000. so when I saw the origin, I was like, okay, well, I saw the things people were saying on the internet, but then I actually touched it. I'm like, this is the best build quality I've ever felt on a console.
Like I was just over at another con console manufacturer's booth and I was playing with theirs and it felt great. I couldn't believe how solid the origin is. And people are like, it's manufactured in China. It's cheap parts. It's this and that. I'm like, dude, this thing is a freaking battle tank, man. They really, really overengineered it. So, and then I was also talking to the guy who designed it and he was telling me through the internals, and then I was talking to TLA at NAM and he was like, dude, I have one, it's awesome, this and that. And then like I I put some
hands time on it on the floor and I fell in love with it. And then the question was I called my assistant. I was like, dude, Joe, how do we, how do we make this work? Because this is a 4,000, but with modern parts, same circuit, which is a sound I want. I didn't want the AWS sound. I wanted something more like a 4,000, but modern that wasn't going to be insane with the upkeep and the electrical cost. Cause all my buddies are like, yeah, dude, it costs me $20,000 a year to keep my $4,000. I'm like, dude, I don't want to buy a a used $4000 for 35 grand.
Joel (42:09.881)
And then put 20 grand a year into it. I'm like, I could buy a used origin for less than the accumulated cost of both of those. And you know, hopefully get at least 10 years of it from it for for having problems. I haven't had a single problem on it, and I've had it for a couple of years now, so I'm gonna knock on wood, but it's been it's been flawless. And my other buddy, there's a guy on YouTube who who's does a lot of stuff with the origin mixing analog online. I think it I think his name's Dave, if I'm thinking, I think.
I did I did a thing with him once and I if my if I messed his name up, I'm sorry. But he his origin he hasn't had a single problem with it, and he's had it for like five years, and like these things are built robust. Okay, sorry, I'm going off topic. So the point is, is I fell in love with the console. I debunked all of the things I heard people just throw out on the internet, and I went and I I was like, I gotta have this. And then it was like, How? Okay. So there was a lot of different ways that you can do workflows, but the way I settled on after
Three years of working on this thing is I don't recall. How do I not recall? I have NG levelers. My recalls take one minute. So sometimes I will work on six different art songs from six different artists in a single day and do like mix revisions and then maybe mix like a single or something. That's a lot of recalling, right? And then jump back. I have to be able to recall in a minute because of how busy and in demand I am. So what I did is I got NG levelers on all the faders.
That was one problem. So everything at zero dB. So now I can mix with my hands and all I got to do is hit the bank button two or three times, which is very nice. I love that. So it's right in front of me. They're very smart about designing this. Next, I was like, okay, well, the EQs on this thing are awesome. The effect send levels I don't need to touch because I have my return levels. So I I I always have the sends where I want them, and then I can adjust with the return how much I want. And I I only use certain things in certain channels where it's like, okay, I'm not going to use my delay.
For you know, so I don't really have to recall anything else. I've got all my levels tapped in, checked, you know, with test generator, you know, like sine wave generator, oscilloscope. I'm not an I'm not a technical engineer, so I get lost on the electrical engineering side stuff. But you know, like I've got everything dialed in perfectly, gain structured how I want it, but I I don't have any faders to recall. It's all in the DAW and the NG leveler is a great product. And then the EQ is easy because I realized I'm like, you know.
Joel (44:28.073)
After mixing on this thing for like a year and a half, I'm like, I never change my Q width and frequency almost ever. But I always, always EQ with it. So I just left them on fixed frequencies, and people might be like, that's blasphemy, blah blah blah. I'm like, Well, yeah, if I want to notch something, I'll do it on like a metric halo channel strip in the computer. You know what I mean? But when I want to just like tone shape and mix, like how many great fixed frequency EQs out there are there? Plenty.
Ever use API, you know, like like they're fun to mix on. It's nice mixing with limitations. Like it really focuses again. This is the big brain macro thing we were talking about. So I only recall the gain and I realized another trick. Ninety nine percent of the time when you turn a knob on an SSL because of the knob size, you always end up on a dot, which is like three D B, right? Now, is it technically three DB? I don't know. I don't measure. I don't care.
Andrew (44:56.143)
Plenty. Yeah.
Joel (45:20.279)
Like I don't have time to sit there and figure out like if you know how calibrated the electronic tolerances are on every channel. But I can do this and it recalls perfectly every time. Plus three, zero, minus six, minus twelve. Next channel, EQ off. Channel five, plus fifteen, plus nine, plus three, plus six. Like that's really easy, isn't it?
Takes me one minute to do that. And then there's a couple of other settings like, the attack time on this compressor went from one MS to tens. And I'll just put them in a notepad. I have a base stock recall that I always work from, like a template. Then I will mix the crap out of the song. All I got to do is recall the EQs and a couple of compressor attack times or release times. And it I it's and then when I'm done with that mix, I just flip them back and annotate something. I recheck the thing, like, look on channel 1314, I bypassed my SSL, you know.
vo vocal compressor, you know, so it's so easy. I never change the hardware. It's how hard am I hitting it? Do I want it on or off? Everything is automatable. It's so fast.
Andrew (46:25.304)
That is that is that is brilliant. especially like you said, like you always have one recall you go back to just like a template. That is that is
Joel (46:30.851)
Yeah. MP board. Cause I have bands that literally like they're crazy. They'll be like, dude, here's a demo mix. Mix it exactly like this. But you know, so I have to almost it's almost like a unity bounce, but then cleaning some things up. So I have to be able to kind of go to something where I'm not like influencing the sound totally crazily. And I mix a lot of stuff like that. They have a lot of artists that are like, pick up where I left off, just add five percent. So, you know, you gotta be able to
Strip down or get crazy with it where you're doing like the CLA thing where you're just smacking everything at fifteen D B as hard as you can, which is also great on the
Andrew (47:04.924)
yeah. Th when it comes to the sound of analog and digital, I I always do get a kick out of the some of the comments that I see online where people are like, You gotta do the null test and you gotta look at the actual math when
Joel (47:16.515)
Do they actually mix and have they actually spent any time in the studio? Have they ac you know, it's easy to throw these platitudes out, but
Andrew (47:22.518)
It's really easy to do that. When they they just recently came out with an update for A2 on the neural ant modeler. And instead of using null tests to see how good things were, the thing is they they they came up with an idea, I think they called it the the mushra, which is the multiple stimuli and then a hidden reference and an anchor. Basically what they did was they had this massive test, they brought out a lot of different audio files, had multiple thousands of people go through and listen to this. Instead of doing null tests, they just had people listen. and one of their biggest arguments was
People are consuming music with their ears. So why would we try to to do the the math on things? 'Cause w once we get to a certain point, doing the null test math stuff just doesn't make a whole lot of sense anymore. We want people to actually use their ears and and and trust their ears on this kind of stuff. And I actually thought that was a a really smart thing.
Joel (48:12.271)
I mean, here's the thing. I know YouTube, th this is this is a big pitfall I see because you know, what was the last thing that came out? Mike Prees. Some guy with you know, you go through this video and it's like it sounds convincing, the tests seem sound, people are like, yeah, you gotta watch this, and then he gets to the end, he's and then he he makes a conclusion that's completely not accurate. You're like, Okay.
Can disprove this in eight seconds in my room, get 30 people in here, and we're gonna have a 30 person consensus every time. You know, a Neave and an API pre do not sound the same. If you can't hear the difference, you shouldn't be doing audio. I hate to say that. That sounds dismissive in me. No, it's not. It's kind of like, okay, if I'm gonna hire a professional dentist, right, to do a filling and he doesn't know how to handle a drill, and he can't tell the difference between a drill and the little teeth pick in the mirror.
And he doesn't know how to how to turn the nitrous on or how where to inject, we're gonna hire that guy. Cause that guy's not a dentist. You know, it's like my job is people pay me thousands of dollars to mix socks, you know, like is to hear little minute differences that nobody else does and to pick up edits that producers missed and little thing, you know, that's my j then the mastering engineers, like some of the guys I work with, like okay, this this one really got me the other day. The internet.
Andrew (49:10.702)
Yeah.
Joel (49:33.208)
I don't I really don't like this trend. I really don't this is a very dangerous trend for beginners because it's confusing, it's misleading, and a lot of it is dog shit. It's absolute garbage. I don't know if I could swear on this or not, but it pisses me off because as somebody who cares about education, I want people to actually learn the art. And yes, in the art, there is a wide variety of opinions, and not everything is gonna work for everybody. However, there is stuff that's just stupid, like flat earth, and then there's actual science. You know what I mean? Like where it's like, all right, guys, I was watching flat earth debates against real scientists.
Andrew (49:33.579)
Ha ha.
Andrew (49:43.63)
Yeah, you're good. You're good.
Andrew (49:57.39)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (50:02.209)
On the way over here. I've never been laughing so hard in my car. I was driving. I just like, it was like it woke me up so hard. I was like, this is great. And this guy's like, Well, this and that. He's I just proved you you don't know what you're talking about. Like this, this, this. And he's like, Well, well, those are just government lies. And he's just like, Are you dumb? So, anyways, so this guy says to me, He's like, I I I posted a I posted a picture of EP, you know, like a mastering EQ I own. And this guy's like, I can't tell the difference. He's a mastering engineer, right? He says, I can't tell the difference between this and pro Q four.
on the on the thing. You know, I listen to this YouTube. I'm like, wait, you're kidding me, right? And I I watch this video, I'm like, are we talking about the same thing? Like you can't hear the difference between these two. So one, either your monitoring is trash. Two, you aren't very good at hearing is but unfortunately what I have to say, I don't want to, I'm not trying to be insulting, but like you you you're kind of deaf. Or three, you're just talking trash. Which one is it? Because
I would be concerned about, I told them I was like, I mean, I mean this really respectfully. I would never hire somebody like you. Because the guys that I hire are the guys who call me and they're like, dude, I just did this crazy test on export and this and this and this and that. And see if you can tell the difference. And like they'll throw out some crazy tests at you and you'll sit there for like two days and you'll do it. And you'll be like, dude, whoa, how did you figure that out? And that's really subtle, but it it doesn't null.
And it's like, I hear this and this and this. And then he's Yeah, but then try this. And you know, it's like these people have insane ears. Like they hear stuff that's crazy. And like, once you hear it though, you can't unhear it. It becomes obvious because you learn the sound. Your brain gets familiar with the difference. And then it doesn't it becomes identified. It's like when people tell me they can't hear the difference between a summing mixer. I'm like, you're kidding me, right? Like, did you spend more than five minutes with it? To me, when somebody says that, it's so damaging to their credibility. I'm like, I don't think I can take anything everywhere.
Andrew (51:50.678)
Ha ha.
Joel (51:57.794)
Seriously, that comes out of this person's mouth. Because if you can't hear that and you claim you're a professional, you can say I didn't like the way the dangerous two bus sounded, but you can't tell me a Neve Orbit and a Dangerous Two Bus Plus and an SSL console sound the same. They don't. They sound very different. And it's like or an SSL fusion doesn't sound like an MBT or different plugins sound different, like a Pro Q4, and this pisses people off. And Metricalo channel strip EQ sound very different. Pro Q4 sounds hazy.
Andrew (52:14.447)
They sound very different.
Joel (52:27.491)
To me. And people are like, well, well, I didn't say it's not a great tool. It is a great tool, but it sounds hazy. And I'm the only person who says that. Go spend some time with the tool. If you spend like a hundred hours mixing with something, you're gonna learn how it sounds. Now spend a hundred hours mixing with a different tool. Now switch back and forth between them. And you'll be like, there's a difference there. Now you might not care, you might not think it matters. That's a whole different debate. But to say that there isn't a difference is silly. I've designed EQ plugins, I know.
When you change saturation effects in a piece of code or this or that, like an EQ is like two lines of code. I've sat with a programmer in this very room and gone back and forth for months. Let's test this saturation. Let's model this. Let's model that. Let's do this. Let's remove saturation. Let's, you know, and like when you're testing this stuff, you have to, you have to be able to hear. If you can't hear, dude, no one's gonna hire you. No one's gonna trust your taste or your judgment because you're gonna think you're deaf. Anyways, end rant. Sorry.
Andrew (53:19.161)
Yeah. I I w one thousand percent agree with you. I remember the first time I had ever had any of my mixes run through my mentor ran it through hi his summing mixer and it was like there's the there's this episode of Rick and Morty where like Rick is like, you know, the older guy, like he's like, You never you don't know what true level is, Morty and he like spends like three days in his garage making a spot on the floor that's truly level and then Morty steps in and he's like
everything's crooked. Everything's awful. It's it was the same thing when I got like my mixes run through that. I was like, my gosh. It was like a light bulb moment for me where was like, okay, so how how does one do this? it was being able to hear those differences, I think, is is is important. I will say though, I'm on the belief that I believe that anybody can develop that skill. Cause I wouldn't have known the difference until somebody sat me down, like literally put me in the chair and was like, I need you to do I need you to listen to this. Yes.
Joel (54:08.131)
Here's what to listen for. Yeah, if it helps to have somebody like do a guided meditation almost through it where it's like, all right, I want you to pay attention to this. You hear the difference. yeah. Okay. Now listen to this. You know, people kinda if you don't know what you're listening for, obviously it might be confusing. Like the first time I mixed into a summing mixer, I was kind of confused by it. I'm like, all right, well, I hear this and that, but now when I open one up, I'm like, okay, here's exactly what's happening. You know what I mean? Like, listen to this, listen to this, listen to this. So it takes
Andrew (54:14.431)
Yeah.
Joel (54:37.965)
Takes time. Hearing is something that develops. Well, does it matter? Well, it does. People can perceive things. They don't necessarily like, you know, they may not be able to put their finger on what because they don't engineer for a living. But, you know, like my friend who's a mechanic in a garage will tell you, like, whoa, how come mixes sound really flat now? I'm like, that's an interesting observation for a guy who has no time in a studio. Let's talk about that.
Andrew (55:02.061)
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I'm I'm curious to know sometimes especially on the education side, when you're teaching other people, I've sometimes the beginners will take advice that's not for them yet. And this is and I g this is so hard, especially for me. I make YouTube videos and I'm and I and I'm teaching some of these people. It's like how in the world do I separate
Joel (55:17.003)
boy.
Andrew (55:26.413)
the advice from the beginners versus the advice from the people that are intermediate to advanced, because sometimes the beginners like the plane that gets you off the ground is not the plane that takes you to where you want to go all the time. How do how do you clarify that and let them know that, hey, this is not for you just yet?
Joel (55:42.65)
Some advice is meant to be gate kept until you reach a certain point. And I hate saying that and that pisses people off, but you're not ready for some things. I'll give you an example. There's some things that I've learned, you know, especially from like mega mastering engineers and stuff like that, where like, I don't talk about them public because I know most of my audience, it would fly right over their head or they wouldn't even believe it. And they're not gonna do the work to like really, really.
Andrew (56:06.325)
Right.
Joel (56:08.685)
You know, they don't have the listening environment. They don't have like they're not gonna put the time into real they're just gonna be like, Well, I heard, you know, some dude made a video that doesn't have any credits, that doesn't work on anything, that's like some hobbyist and he says this, and it sounded really convincing. So, so you must be full of it. And you're like, Well, actually, let's talk about how we tested this. You got four hours and then come sit here for five days and we'll run tests, and then you'll be like, and it'll completely change your perspective. So there are things that I think not
Andrew (56:25.495)
Ha ha ha.
Joel (56:37.835)
everybody is ready for. So I try to keep a lot of things that I teach relevant to being a teacher, which is try to keep them in that medium to intermediate and touch on some of the advanced stuff. I'll give you example. Like if okay, let's talk about producers. You know, if I go up to a new producer who doesn't have any cuts and I start talking about how publishing deals work, how point catalog sales work, you know, how to how who to contact, how to do it, how you know they're gonna be like, the hell are you talking about? What's a point?
You'd be like, God. You know what I mean? Like, where do we start? That's a long conversation. Like, that's a lot of inform. So instead of teaching them how to sell their catalog and why that's important, it's like, how about like this? How about let's work on just getting your first client in the door, you know, the first artist to come and work with you and just getting a fee for that service. You know what I mean? Like, okay, now that you understand that, let's talk about songwriting. Let's talk about master. You know, let's talk about publishing deals and master catalog sale. You know, like you have to go through.
Like most producers aren't even at the point where they're getting points on a record or songwriting credit or anything like that, and they're not they don't even know what a catalog is. You go to Nashville, everybody knows what it is, or LA because they're working on stuff where it's like it streams a lot and people listen to it, and that matters. So it's like if something doesn't matter for somebody, it you it's gonna go right over their head, they're not gonna be ready for that information. So I like to think about mixing in levels, and this is something what you said really resonates with me because.
The analogy I use it's like a video game. All right. So say we're playing like Warcraft online or something, right? Where and like what you need, the skills to go from like level one to 10 are very different than what you need from 10 to 20 and 20 to 30. And then maybe at 30 you think the game maxes out and you're pretty badass. Cause say you're five years into this craft, and you're like, I remember sitting there in like 2000 and like eight. And I'm like, yeah, dude, my mixes are getting really competitive. And you know, my kick drum sounds just as good as this dude, and this and this and that, but something's missing, you know, and then like.
Many, many years, almost 20 years later, I sit there and and I listen. I'm like, dude, man, I suck back then. But I didn't understand. You know, I was I was sitting there like level 15 and I didn't understand like the level eighty vantage point. You know what I mean? Cause I w so what I'm saying is like you gotta teach different things from for somebody to go from one to ten, ten to twenty, twenty to thirty, thirty to forty. Cause if you think the game ends at thirty, then all of a sudden you like level up past thirty, you you get the extended part of the game.
Joel (58:58.753)
Now you're the noob in the game and the server and you get all these level 50s that are PKing your ass every single second. You can't even get a shot in. And you're like, what the hell? So the advice you need is different at different points in your career. And that's what makes teaching mixing really hard is because like I can say something and people will be like, well, blah blah blah like, well, it's just not relevant for you yet. You just don't understand it. Like here, here's my favorite. I remember once reading I'll never forget this, Jack Joseph Week.
Says in some interview, like the secret to being a great mixer is like getting the mid-range right. And I'm as somebody was like two or three years into this, I was like, well, that's a stupid comment, you know? And then like 10 years later, I'm like, my God, dude, that's so genius. And here's why. You know, like I didn't get it. And at first I dismissed it because I will I know that. No, I didn't know that. I didn't understand what that meant. I wasn't good enough at mixing. Now I look back at that, I'm like, dude, that's so brilliant. Like I could talk about the topic for five hours, getting the mid-range right.
This is such a complex, nuanced topic. And it's like, you know, somebody who's little in the Dunning Kruger land, you know, you might be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's dumb. I already know that. Obviously, get the mid-range, right? Well, like, yeah, but what does that really mean? So that's a difference, you see. So yeah, okay, so to answer the question, I think the answer is you have to you have to have public facing content, and then you kind of have to have content for your higher performer type people.
Andrew (01:00:04.771)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joel (01:00:18.285)
Like I'll give you an example. Like the things I go to a lot of parties. Like when I go to like Nashville or, you know, LA or whatever. Like I'll hang out in Nashville and like all the top mixing guys will be there. And like we're all really good friends. And the stuff that we talk about is not the stuff that you see on the internet. Trust me. It's like it's crazy, you know? And like the things that we care about are not something that you could really teach to a general public audience because they're not living in that world.
Like they don't know what it's like to be the number one person in the world at something and have that level of demand and have to figure out how to balance those systems and and bal you know, balance off all you know, all these different like they just don't understand until you go through it. It's it's irrelevant advice for somebody that's not in that position. Like selling a master catalog. You know what I mean? Unless you've got points on hundreds and hundreds of songs spanning a decade, like it's an irrelevant discussion. Don't even think about it. Just keep collecting back it. So
Andrew (01:01:12.793)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joel (01:01:13.719)
It's like just things like that. So it's it's so that's what I'm saying is like, you know, when we would do like summits and stuff at URM, like the people that would come to those were pretty sharp people or s you know. So I w when when I find somebody who's like pretty advanced, like we can go in depth and we can really talk about some pretty crazy stuff. Like, why don't you try this? Come back to me in two weeks and see if you can hear a difference, you know? Let me know what your observations are. You know what I mean? So that that those are the kinds of things that I think really have a lot of value where it's like on the internet.
People would just dismiss stuff and they wouldn't believe it because they're just not ready for it. It's kind of like if you've never taken a physics class and you don't understand anything about math and science and you you've grown up in a vacuum and somebody says the earth is flat, you'll be like, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Like I looked out, I looked down the street and it looks flat to me, you know, and I see a little hill there, but I climbed a hill and then it's flat. You can't see the curvature of the earth. You know what I mean? So you could you can make an argument and people you could convince somebody very accurately that that's true. But once they're like,
Well, this is silly if you just this, this, this, this. all right, yeah, that makes sense. The earth is a globe.
Andrew (01:02:13.709)
Yeah. I love that. I think that sometimes too there there always has to be a balance because I I with with talking with with some of these people that are like really just want to get really good at what they do, they also are scared to not release stuff until they have reached like the top level. Right. They just assume that there is a top level. But like I hope that six years from now I look back at the mixes I'm making now and I hope that
I am like, man, I could have done so much better because that meant I I grew and I was improving. What would you say to somebody who's like sitting on a a hard drive worth of their worth of songs because they're waiting for that next thing? They're like, Wow, I just remixed, I learned another thing. Six months later I'm gonna remix the whole album again and then it's just gonna stay on my computer until I get better.
Joel (01:03:00.495)
I love this question because this is something I think really resonates with me. and I see this especially as on the teaching side of what I do every single day of my life.
Just put the stuff out. Okay. Obviously, like something you did three years ago probably isn't gonna be as good as what it is now. It is what it is. You know, so should I just discard the first decade of my career? Like, no, I went out and I did the best that I could. Or the second decade of my career now that I'm in the third. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't discard any of that. It doesn't invalidate that. Like you just go here's the thing. Okay. If you want to be successful at this, I'm a huge fan of like the Nike slogan. Like just do it. Literally just get out there and go fail. Like put it out, have it suck.
Who cares? You know, you just need to be a little bit better than what somebody else can do, dou do themselves to get hired. That's it. So at some point, you need to get in the real world and you need to go out and you need to just make it happen. And you can't sit around and wait for approval because you will wait the rest of your life. Because here's the here's the thing that nobody wants to talk about on the internet. And I see this fallacy all the time again from educational experience. I've had people sit on calls with me and they're like, I've been mixing two years and I think I'm really good. Why aren't I getting these top tier bands? And I'm like, I'm like,
Hold on a second. what just came out of your mouth? Okay, let me give you a reality check. And I mean this col col politely, but the okay, the the amount of mixers that work on top-tier bands, there's like in every genre, there's like five to fifteen people. And to break into that tier of people, you've got to dethrone somebody or come in like, you know, you're gonna be doing this at least 15 years before you start even probably getting shots. And you might be before then, you know, you might get lucky, you might have a hit.
But like to come out and have an expectation of I've been doing this for five years, I'm gonna go compete against the best in the world, like you don't really understand at five years in how far of a gap there is between you and that person. Like I said, I was sitting in my car at like five, five years, six years, seven, eight years in listening to mixes, and I'm like, yeah, man, like my kick drum sounds just as good. Like, no. Now I now I'm like, dude, listen, here's what here's what you're missing, son. I didn't understand it back then.
Joel (01:05:01.909)
as well as somebody there. Cause again, you you you can only see the level 30. You don't understand that the game goes to 99. And you're not even gonna understand what 90 looks like until you hit the high 80s. You know what I mean? Because like you need a different mindset in the video game to, you know, a different strategy, a different approach to reach that stuff. So I like I like hanging out with guys who are like in their 60s and 70s, who are like really, really iconic and listening to them talk. Because for me, that gives me ideas
And it's just like, wow, you know, like that's different than what I would have needed like 20 years ago in my career, where somebody like, all right, man, let's just focus on balancing, you know, or EQing. Forget all this crazy crap. Like just focus on fundamentals. Let's just drill this. So, you know, it's very easy to get lost and in terms of like experience and what you need. So you just have to go out and do it, right? You have to just admit, like, look, it's gonna take me a lifetime to get great at this. This is a lifetime pursuit.
I'm never gonna feel like I'm good enough. Okay, accept it. It doesn't matter how good I get, and no matter how much success I get, it's never gonna be enough. Now, once we can agree on those three things internally with ourselves, we can start. We can go out and we can say, hey, let's just put music out there. Because the most successful artists I work with are the people that are consistent. They're just like, I'm gonna put a song out every 90 days, 60 days, and they're maniacs about it. Like I have this band of voila, and they I do two full-length albums with them every year, and they don't write filler.
Like this guy is phenomenal. And like their output is is just incredible, dude. It's like mind-bending how fast these people work and how intense we work when we're mixing and how fast we go. Like our workflow is crazy. So, you know, I think about these guys and they've worked themselves up to almost four million monthlies as an independent band. And I think about how hard they work. And it's like, yeah, of course they put songs out where they're like, you know, it flops. Who cares? So what? Then they put a song out three mug, you know, three weeks later.
And it does 40 million streams. You know what I mean? So it's like it doesn't matter. What matters is consistency. You know, you're working hard. You're putting stuff out. So same thing in the studio. It's like you're never, don't worry about being as good as Chris Loralogy. It's gonna take you 30 years, maybe, if you have the talent. But in the meantime, you shouldn't not try. You should go out and just give it your best every day because all you gotta do is be a little bit better than the person that's hiring you. That's it. And you can add value. So just do it, man. Go out, do it.
Andrew (01:07:23.447)
Yeah.
Joel (01:07:26.979)
Don't be afraid. This is why we have thing places like URM. We have communities of other people who are out here doing it. We can encourage you. We can help you answer questions. Don't beat yourself up. We all have days where we beat ourselves up. It's okay. Even I do. I've been doing this for way over two decades, you know? And it's like, I have days where I'm like, I don't think I even know how to mix. Like this song is killing me. And then I have days where I'm like, I'm so good at this, this is this is I don't even have to think. You know what I mean? I'm so.
Andrew (01:07:46.943)
Yeah.
Joel (01:07:52.56)
We we have our days. You're gonna be on one side of the coin, you're gonna be on the other. And as soon as you think you're getting good at it, you'll have days where you knock down 10 pegs on the ladder and you'll be like, I'm terrible. So, you know, it's okay. That's part of getting better at any skill. It's like I don't expect to go out and and you know, pick pick pick a skill like fencing, right? And then like fight the world champion after two years of fencing classes. Like I would get killed every time. And if if if if I somehow do win, it's because it just I got lucky, you know.
Like you might be able to beat CLA on a a one mix on one day and 'cause you interpreted a song better, but you're not gonna beat him on a thirty song run. He's gonna beat you into the ground.
Andrew (01:08:31.918)
Absolutely. you've been you've been called the the Tony Robbins of audio. if you literally like just look up the Tony Robbins of audio, your name pops up on Google and I've seen it on multiple different forms. I'm curious to know where does this honestly like this relentless positivity come from? it's it's it's very addicting, and it's it's nice to be able to hear it.
Joel (01:08:51.875)
I gotta give Billy Decker the credit for for that. But you know, I don't know. I think for me when I was a kid, I kind of had a difficult childhood. Like I was I was like not very athletic and I was really skinny, nerdy kid. You know, imagine like, you know, in in like the 80s having like the suspenders and like, you know, my parents had not dressed me very cool and I was very introverted and you know, it made me a very easy target, you know, and like I was not athletic. I was I was blind, so I couldn't play good sports.
You I couldn't hit a baseball. I was always the worst on my teams. And, you know, I was just not that kid. Where my dad was like a superstar athlete, you know, growing up. So that, you know, how how disappointing he busted about for me as a kid. But hey, you know, one thing it did make me as an ultra alpha psychotic competitor. And the other thing that it made me was what I was cause I was kind of like a loner growing up and I didn't really have like a lot of friends and like had a hard time connecting with people until I discovered music.
For me, I got really into like motivational self-help type stuff when I was in my early 20s when I was a young kid because I was like, I'm sit sick of sitting around, being depressed, looking like this at the lunch table, being angry at the world. I realized up until a certain point in my life, I had a specific day where I was I had an external locust of control. Everything in my life, like these guys picked on me because of X. I didn't get a girlfriend in high school because of Y. You know, it was always somebody else's fault. And then one day I realized I'm like, well, you know what?
I can't change the world, but I can change me. So I started going to the gym, started working out, started eating healthy, started like, you know, I'm I'm gonna go practice social situations. I was like the ultimate introvert. I was literally like a in high school, like sit there, pissed off, all black, face down on the ground. You know, I hate people. Like I was that kid. And then one day I changed and I was like, you know, started reading reading books on positive mindsets because I didn't have like a lot of friends back then. I was like.
That was what I had. So I I got into it and I'm just like, you know, there's some real joy in trying to encourage people and lift them up and like you know. So I kind of just developed like a positive go-getter and it changed my life. Like it really, really changed my life. Cause I I I learned how to be social. I immediately was able to get a girlfriend. Like it was like all these things, these boxes as a very young man that you it hadn't been checked off in my life. Like all of a sudden I got friends and people wanted to hang out with me. And then I, you know, it was like all I I fixed my body.
Joel (01:11:14.583)
language and my posture. And then I started working out a little bit and like, you know, I was in shape. And now all suddenly I was athletic. And like, you know, it was like totally life-changing for me. So I took control of my life and I realized it started with the mindset in those books. So for me, it's like I've always because I always had that chip on my shoulder of being a kid. You know, I never I come from Wisconsin, dude. You know, I taught myself how to do audio. I I didn't never could get a job or an internship in audio.
I had to figure this out and battle myself out. I didn't go to Nashville or LA and go intern for some famous producer and rack up a bunch of gold records. I had to go earn my stuff. And you know, it took me the long and hard way. So for me, music has been a very integral part of that transformation in my life. It was the one thing I had when I was a young, depressed, angry kid who was misunderstood and didn't fit into society. The one thing that kind of kept me sane and afloat.
And that was the one thing that always encouraged me. Like I didn't go to prom, I was too busy shredding on guitar. You know, I I wanted to I wanted to practice scales instead of, you know. So you know what I mean? Like you know, in your brain, that sounds awesome, but looking back, I'm like, man, I had my priorities backwards. So, you know, i in my brain, I had to rewire it and positivity and like exercise and health and diet and
You know, that type of lifestyle was something that really resonated for me. And I've always wanted to give music back to people. That's been something that's inspired me. So you know, URM obviously is is my platform or nail the mix. And I I'm able to channel that energy. Like I just get pumped about doing it because I see the changes and when I hear stories of people like, Yeah, I did this, this changed my life. It's like crazy to hear that because it's like a it's like a band, you know, you start
You start a band in your garage and like you play. Well, maybe now they start on like power tab or your sorry guitar pro or whatever. You know, and and MIDI drums. But like back in the day, we used to just go over to our buddies house and like, you know, play like dun dun dun in the basement, you know, and like that's how we did it. So and it was fun, you know. So we I I I always loved music and it was the one thing I had. So I always like there's always a pivotal moment I feel like in every musician's life, or you know, it was we say you don't choose music, it chooses you.
Andrew (01:13:06.463)
Yeah.
Joel (01:13:28.953)
For me, that was listening to Brandy Rhodes on Mr. Crowley solo. My buddy in like 10th grade, the like the two kids I sat next to on lunch, who are all, you know, gives me this Walkman. He's like, listen to this dude play guitar. And it blew my mind. I went home and I got serious about guitar that night and got lessons. I bought that tab book the next day and I started trying to figure it out. And that was like, man, I want to be like a virtuosic guitar player. And like that's when I like really locked into music. And that was like the lightning in a bottle moment. Just like the first time I stepped into a studio. I was like,
I don't know what it is, but I get the flutters and I walk in here. I'm like, there's something about being in here that feels right. So for me, it's like taking that feeling that some kid gets, you know, in my my world, I feel like music kind of saved me and my life, and like that's passing that on to somebody else. That's like a really cool, noble thing. There's so much negative crap on the internet. I hate it. It's like I, you know, obviously, like anybody else, I have an opinion on whatever political issue. I don't care. I never discuss it. I don't care what anybody else thinks. Nobody's gonna change their mind. I'm not gonna try to change anybody. I just
I agree to disagree and I accept. And I'm fine with it. It doesn't matter. You know, I I've met some really crazy people in my life that are like into some really wild views. And I'm just like, whatever, just go do you. Leave me alone. I don't care. Like, I'm not gonna impose my world beliefs on you. So there's so many negative things online, and it's so easy because every algorithm, like if I go on X and I start scrolling, it just puts me in a bad mood because it's just so doom and gloom. War, destruction, this and this and that. And it's just like, man.
Sometimes you just gotta go out and touch grass. So I'm just like, it's so easy to be negative. The whole world is negative. Everything wants to bring you down in your life. I just wanna bring people up, you know? If I can. It's like music, that's what it does. It's like I don't care what your politics are, I don't care what your background is, I don't care anything about you. We like the same band, we're buddies, you know?
Andrew (01:15:04.366)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew (01:15:17.62)
Ha ha ha.
Joel (01:15:18.467)
Like we've got something in common that brings us together. You know what I mean? We like the same genre. We like, you know, like music brings people together. And I love that about music because like I said, it takes all the negative crap you see in the world that's so divisive and so just brutal. People are like looking for meaning in their lives. And like I would rather give my life to trying to do something positive. And that's giving the gift of music to people and inspiring people to to do it for a living. And even though it's so hard to do this for a living.
Just like helping people navigate that. And again, you know, I know most people unfortunately probably will not make it because you have to be a psychopath to really, really, really, really kill it in this industry. But at the same time, it's like, why not try? You know what I mean? Because what if you do it a lot? And people do, you know, look at yourself. People go out, they get it, you know, and like that's inspiring to see. And that's a thing. Okay. This is a good point. On the internet, you see it gets pretty violent out there. I do a lot of content my real smash. I get a lot of like crazy comments where I'm.
You know, people threaten me, like I get I get some real psychos, which is really wild. It's like all I said is like put this compressor on base, you know, and you're like wanna fight me or something. Like like like you wouldn't behave like that in per like people are nuts, mental illness. You see that and you're just like, Man, why do I do this? But then you see the positive side of that, where you're just like you s you see somebody go out and like, hey man, you know, I
Andrew (01:16:20.59)
Yeah.
Joel (01:16:39.373)
I worked really hard at this. And so when you hang out with pros, all right, you'll find that you may hate the other person's work and think they're terrible, but you will respect the living crap out of them every single day and treat them with respect because they're still in the game. And you know how hard that is. So when you go to these parties, you may or may not like somebody's mixes or that you may have totally divergent opinions, but you respect each other. That's so different from the internet, because in the internet, it's complete disrespect.
It's like, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, where people will try to nitpick one word you said and like frame it into this convoluted, twisted, out of context thing and like beat you over. This is what I hate about YouTube is like people do this all the time. Like I was watching these two, these two mastering engineers go at it and I happen to know one of them.
And I was just like, man, this other guy is just brutal. He's like nitpicking this guy's words and like just making and and I'm like, I'm I'm like, where is he coming up with this? Like this guy even work? Like, or is he just an entertainer? Like, these this is just this is just like gaslighting bullshit. Like it bothers me to watch stuff like that. Cause I know it's just entertainment and it's disgusting to see somebody go after somebody like that. it just like directly. And I'm just like, dude, would knock you out if you were to say this to his face, you know? Like.
Andrew (01:17:55.192)
Yeah.
Joel (01:17:55.448)
And I'm just thinking to myself, like but you just see stuff like that on the internet. So it's amazing. Like I said, you get in a room with real pros and it's like we're all hugs and what's up, bro. And I'm so happy to see you. And even people that are like, like, you know, some of my biggest critics, people who have talked immense trash about me online, like I'll see them at a party and it's like we're best friends. We hang out and it's like we're cool in real life. On the internet, no. But in real life, yes.
Andrew (01:18:21.246)
Yeah.
Joel (01:18:22.637)
And it's freaking hilarious to us because we laugh about it and we joke about it. It's like we don't care that we have different opinions on things. We still respect each other professionally. So that's the difference. It's like about the real world versus the touching grass world versus the internet world. It's wild, man, to see that.
Andrew (01:18:30.797)
Yes.
Andrew (01:18:37.312)
It it it it can it can be stark sometimes. dude, w w one last thing I I I I've gotta bring up where you mentioned just you know, you know, the as as negative as the internet can be, it can also bring a lot of positivity as well. I was yeah, years ago I was I was I was painting the ceiling at a job. I used to work construction, and I I I felt like really stuck. I go home every night and would make music that I just prayed that somebody would pay me for.
Joel (01:18:50.455)
It can. Sometimes.
Andrew (01:19:04.152)
But I d I'll be honest, like I wasn't good enough yet. And I wasn't good enough with the side of business either. and so it wasn't one day when I was painting the ceiling and I I and I was just sick and tired of being there. I pulled out my earbuds, I just pulled up music business on Apple Podcasts, and you came up on a guest episode from a podcast that was called Your Band Sucks at Business. and I was like, I go through this episode and you're like, Yeah, you have control over a lot more than you think you do.
And I was like, I thought I was just in this job because I had to be. I had no choice. This is the way the cars were dealt. I was waiting for for me to get lucky. And I just felt like I was a very unlucky person. After that podcast, I can still smell the paint from that room. I went all in and was like, well, if if I spend the rest of my life doing this and never giving it a full-on shot, I'll always wonder what would have happened. And I thought, you know what? Worst case scenario, I get really freaking good at my craft.
And I don't go full time. Worst case scenario of what I'm doing now is I just wait to get lucky. I never go all in. And I'll always wonder what if. What would you say to the person who was like I was at that moment before I went full time? Maybe something that was very similar to where you were, you know, back in two thousand six.
Joel (01:20:18.861)
Well, first off, that's an incredible story and you should be extremely proud of yourself because that's, you know, it's kind of like people ask me what makes a good intern. I'm like, all you gotta do is show up and try. Seriously, if you can show up and try, you're gonna beat 90% of people. And I know that sounds like grim, but I've seen it as an employer. Like I I've seen scenarios where like one person can just come in and want to be there and outshine everybody, and you're like, Okay, well, this person
You know, like th this person is is incredible. Like we need to really lock that in. So I think the same thing, you know, like my assistant, he came in and again, he was the guy who showed up and tried where like 20 other people hadn't. So, you know, like that I think is important. So that being said, making it is both hard and easy at the same time. Absolutely what you said is spot on. Most people are living in a state of fear where their fear and insecurities about doing something.
Are holding them back. And they're always worst case scenarioing everything in their head. We all do this. This is how our brains are with this fight or flight. It's like, what if this happens and this happens and what if I fail and I'll be so humiliated? And it's like, yeah, well, you know what? At least you tried. You know, think about it like this. Like, who's more impressive? You walk I okay, I see this all the time. Like my kid is in soccer. I see this all the time. Like, I'll go out, I'll hang out with the other parents. And they're like, dude, it's so cool that you own a business. And I've always wanted to like start my own thing. And
But I just never like, you know, and they go through this and I'm just like, well, why don't you? And they're like, well, blah blah and I'm like, look, you're you're just speaking from fear. So who cares if you fail? Like, so what? At least you tried. Like, like no one's gonna disrespect you for trying, because it'd be like, well, why haven't you tried? And then now it's on them. And they'll be like, well, yeah, because you're afraid. So so if somebody were to come to you and say, Hey, blah, blah, blah, be like, okay, well, what about you? What have you done? First off, it's a kind of a jerk move that you're insulting me and you're not.
supporting me, I thought we were friends. But second, so so that little alleviates the judgment thing right there. You have to give it a shot in life because you live once, you know, maybe there's reincarnation or something, or maybe there's an afterlife. That depends on what your beliefs are. And I don't know. I have no idea what's gonna happen when I'm gone or you're gone or anybody else. But I do know this. I'm here now. And I do know that if you get into philosophy and all these things and you study science and physics and
Joel (01:22:40.877)
You know that life is pretty much irrelevant. We're just a little mass of self-conscious atoms walking around a a blue planet in the middle of a cloud of dust and heat. And you know, and it could all end tomorrow. And anything we care about doesn't so you know, it's like nothing matters, but everything does. So you might as well do what you care about while you're here and you might as well give it a shot. And yeah, of course, you if you've got three kids or or two kids, you know, you're you're gonna be there's gonna be s a risk profile factor. But
If you're not out there doing it and you're not saying that you tried, you're really leaving some chips on the table and you're gonna regret it later in your life. I had a bank job and in 2006 was like the day that I want like full time. But I I was doing audio and making money for a couple of years before that. But like 2006 was like really the day where I just said full on, full time, quit my job. Or sorry, 2005. my God, was it six or five? I'm getting old, man. My brain, my brain is cooked. It might be six.
Andrew (01:23:39.671)
Yeah.
Joel (01:23:40.676)
It might be five. It doesn't matter. I you know, I s somewhere around like 2000 was when I started earning income from audio. And you know, like that was a point where I just said, I can't work for a bank anymore. I can't do this. I hate this. Every day I come home, I'm miserable. I work till ten o'clock at night working with bands. Saturday, Sunday, I spend all weekend working with this band the bands. Like, you know, I just need to go for it. I don't care. And, you know, I didn't care. Yeah, it was humiliating. Like I had to move back into my mom's and like
get in the basement and like make records and like, you know, you go to like you go to like the Thanksgiving, your cousin's like, you're still screwing around with bands in your mom's basement. Like you're like twenty six years old. Like when are you gonna when are you gonna grow up? You know, and you're and you're thinking you're like, I make more money than you do. Do I tell her? Or do I not? You know? You know, and it's really frustrating. And then you know, and then when you start killing it and you do something that somebody knows, like your mom, you're gonna get respect. So
Andrew (01:24:28.631)
I know, I know, yeah.
Joel (01:24:39.383)
You gotta learn about delayed gratification and just understand that you can't be afraid to take risks in life. You can't. Because I meet so many people who are really pissed that they didn't start a business. And in my brain, I'm like, God, I don't know if you want to put yourself through the pain of this, what it takes to do this, but most people don't. But really, you should try because you might love it. Like I love the combat. I love getting in the ring every day. It's fun, it's stressful, but it's fun. I'm built for that. Not everybody's built for that, but you should find out because if you don't.
Why? You know, like what what kind of life is that? You know? Your your worst fears usually never come true.
Andrew (01:25:16.386)
Yeah. My my dad told me he my dad's a business owner, works on cars and he and he told me but before I went full time, I'm like, Dad, I don't know if this is a good idea. And he goes, And the thing that I tell people not to, worst case scenario, you go all in and then you have to go get a job. The worst case scenario is the essentially what you're doing right now. And I was like, that's a good point. He's like, Or worst case scenario ends up being a better case scenario because you go all in on this.
You give it a shot, you have one really cool story to tell, and you get really good at your at your craft. That's worst case scenario of going all in. People just live in fear too much, man. and you're definitely a light in in the space to keep people away from that. where yeah.
Joel (01:25:59.184)
I'll tell you this real quick is that people I see all the time, like employers. You walk in with a story, we're like, yeah, you know, I tried to do my own thing, it didn't work out, but let me tell you that story. They're like, all right, this person takes initiative. That's what an employer hears. So when you walk into a job, be like, you know, I took three years off and I tried to build a business. It didn't work out as I planned. I worked really hard. I learned a lot. I grew a lot. They're gonna be like, damn, that's way more impressive that, I went to Harvard or the I don't care. You know what I mean? Like, show me that you want to be here.
Andrew (01:26:27.806)
Yeah.
Joel (01:26:29.005)
That's what's impressive.
Andrew (01:26:30.85)
Yeah. One thousand percent agree, man. One thousand percent. where can where can people find more of you?
Joel (01:26:37.113)
Sure. So if you want to learn how to mix stuff, you can check out Nail the Mix. We just launched Nail the Mix Plus, which we gave them something they've been asking for for 10 years. We kind of had to figure out the best way to do it. But we have you know, nail the mix.com. You can if you get nail the mix plus, we have it's like the most comprehensive system of learning this stuff from the best people on the coolest bands you're gonna find anywhere. It's super deep dive stuff. You can watch any nail the mix.
from history, which is 10 years. I mean, we've had Bring Me the Horizon and Nickelback and Machine Head and God's Mac and like Mashuga and you know anything and everything and everyone and in between. And we've had so many legends on that have just done so many legendary things and like it's it's really a phenomenal resource. We have an incredible community.
And everybody there is positive. It's not like going on the thing you ask a question where you're gonna get destroyed for like so many other forums. You can come in and ask what you might think is the dumbest question in the world, and people are gonna be well, try this, or think about you know, people will legitimately help you. And that is really, really, really proud of the community that we built over at you know, nail the mix, your same company. So you can check that out. as a mixer, it's mixed by joel.com. I try to keep that easy so they can definitely, you know, check out.
listen to my work and my reel. And I mean I have so many credits. I've got tons up on Muso if you want to see my discography. But I still even on Muso, I have so many unclaimed things where it's like, you know, I had a like a Christian label I did a bunch of work for in like 2010 ish era. And I mean that whole catalog is down and that might be like 200, 300 songs. You know, so there's so many projects that I've worked out in my career where it's like I mix an album and then the artist just gets cold feet at the end of it.
Andrew (01:28:12.917)
Ha ha ha.
Joel (01:28:19.543)
And they're just like, I don't want to put this out. And you're like, what? And it's just like, all right, well, there goes 13 songs that I got paid for that will never come out. You know, so there's just so many things like that. But I mean, I've I've documented most of the credits that I care about, where like they're substantial. And I try to keep tabs on the newer stuff I work on. I'm glad that tool exists because before that I had like 20 or 30 documented credits on all music and it drove me nuts. I'm like, this is BS. Like I've worked on so many things.
Andrew (01:28:23.582)
Yeah.
Andrew (01:28:48.172)
Love it. I love it. Well, everyone, this has been Joel Wanasack. Thank you for being here, man.
Joel (01:28:49.143)
But
Joel (01:28:52.804)
Thank you so much, Andrew. I appreciate it.
Andrew (01:28:54.681)
Likewise.
